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Tape 36


meeting Con

Netscape Documentary
Tape 36
...applied to the code that were about to give them And affect how we give them
And so if we go up and work with developer Bob and developer Bob says yeah
you caii make the source code free but want it to be free under my free license
-and we give them pile of stuff that has developer Bob stuff in it with his free
license and our stuff thats under NPL is going to accept that
So you want the 3rd party to feel bad that we that weve done done them wrong
Well Imjust saying this is problem that has to solve on day one
and if know what the solution is do different stuff today Like there are files
that have the BSD copyright on the top of them
So how do you resolve it
was hoping that would have resolved this sent crazy mail out last
night So Toms coming Now does everyone understand that issue Lets not
beat it into the ground anymore wait till Tom shows up
Then well beat it into the ground some more
Then well beat it into the ground some more
Seems fair
have good news think we figured out the NSPR story
Uh-oh would love to hear this story
Friar beat me up pretty good today But
...thats shock
Urn were going to take the NSPR tarball that has the license in it were going to
check it into NSPR pub in our tree and hes going to give updates to that and its
çq 1t
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going to the tip So we get rid of the branch thing there is public NSPR
thing which is part of the client OK and urn promised him that we wouldnt itwork
all the make files in there Right yet Yet said said in order to meet the
3/31 date were not doing to re-do all
So you just guaranteed it for the next week or so
No didnt .. branch business they didnt they didnt modify they didnt
sanitize their code OK right They they what they did is they gave us tarball
They didnt sanitize the code they didnt put the NPL in their files They gave -they
put they took some files and put NPLs in them and put them in the tarball so
they post-processed the tarball .. their directory
Is the tarball that they gave us sanitized
Yes But we didnt do anything with that tarball We said thank you very much
We just said thank you very rnuch
No wait minute lets get clear on this its sanitized in terms of everything that
Garrett and laid down in the sanitization
checklist minus pre-pending the files of the NPL
No its not its got other stuff in it that the NSPR directory has stuff in it that we
cant ship Its got IBM code in it its got other stuff in it OK
All right
So we have so and they dont and they dont they want to own the tip of their
tree too
And they dont want to be working out of the tree
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Right understand
So what were going to is were going to make an NSPR pub directory where we
check our stuff
Arid who owns that
They own the rights they theyre the owners of that code in the
world OK
Now decides who the owner is of that code based on the response..
OK so theyre theyre starting out and
the first thing thats going to happen is Brian Ostermans going to submit to different build system
One that works
That works
You know
and theyre not going to take
You know Im sitting on both sides of this fence mean spent the day reading
their their their mean they did lot of work to try to get their build system as
they way they do the way they do distribution and we have our own culture and
theres theres problem of the mixing of cultures right now OK And were
going to have to were going to have to address it but
Theres fundamental problem their build system is designed to build
An engine
just their part their independent part but were designing build system that
builds an entire client right
Right and servers and what they want us to do is to take the binaries right
And were never going to take the binaries
c/ zCa
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Were never going to take the binaries
OK know know listen hear you
And and on UNIX its doable Brian can hack it right and has and hes already
..all of our platforms..
...I cant believe this..
.on Windows
...arent even in and were arguing with you that
...Im not saying Im trying to get workable solution so that we can ship
Yeah but cant get binaries from Norm Friar run an Amiga and pull the source code
Running free BSDs Wheres that NSPR binary
Well theres the they they give tarball which you can pull down and build the
NSPR binary and then youre mean thats their argument right So if you want
to build this thing we put up heres the distribution for all these mean that
their model dont necessarily agree with their model but it does make the build
system bigger it makes
It has hamstrung the client Windows system We cannot change the client system to
improve it because NSPR has locked us into the system that we have
Are we going down rathole here
miscellaneous arguing
Alan gave us tarball that he had removed all the 3rd party code from and put the
NPL in and then he closed the bug and then he left and that never ever got
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checked into the tree that was just some place in Alans universe
That is correct Any time to file Because thats thats what he understood at the
time signing to mean
How could he sign
He misunderstood what signing meant
So he signed files that were not
Not NPL he has stuff in his directories which is not free Hes not playing by our
So all that happened
Now what is going to happen and so he signed the tip
He signed the tip
of this tree and made branch that we build
No he signed Jack Shit We made branch and signed it
How do you sign branch
Well you sign
He made branch off his last tag and then we checked in the NPL..
All right OK Now Im happy now what does he propose to do is that..
So now what were saying is that hes got stuff in his tarball hes got stuff in the tip
of his tree that he needs to have to support his his customers he doesnt want to
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live out of he doesnt want to develop out of he doesnt
want to he just wants to event sometimes just give source code to
He is not going to be the owner of NSPR Cause doesnt have owners
who treat him who treat them like that Right
May very well happen
Why are why are we going out of our way to make him be different To let him be
different in this
He offered us his source code in form in which we can check it in and be done
Hang on
...the assumption that were getting some favor from Alan Friar The company
says we are freeing the source that includes NSPR Why is this why does this
make him any different than any other component that were that were dealing
Thats good question
OK Ijust thats what want to know
Its different because it is component that is shared by the server division and if
So we just checked it in to separate branch He diverged
He has he has everybody most most 95% percent of the client has only one
customer which is the client He serves two masters Hes different
No he still only serves one master .. the server people and we have to deal with
Thats little unfair Im sorry
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...and the server people used to say that everybody in this company was totally
client-centric and they got the shaft too So mean lets
OK Water under the bridge What are we going to do now were going to check all
The tarball
The tarball into new section of the tree
new directory Which is the free directory Which basically hes probably going to
ignore for while Which is good thing for us
Fine Great love that..
.. people talking all at once
No dont own the code
Check it in
Check it in
as version two
as version two right And
Why dont we check it in as not version two check it in as version one and follow
the sign
Standard procedure in this NSPR pub
OK check it in as version one and then sanitize it sign it OK and then and make
the build system work with NSPR pub as opposed to NSPR 2.0
So we change the module file
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We have to change the module file change the
tag we pull from
.. we eliminate some stuff in the make files cause were only pulling the tip now
which is another good thing
Were not on branch with them anymore
Right Were .. is there anything .. at this time
We might be able to
One at time
All right so were on the
tip there
And Javas done
Now whos the we
.you were descrbing the work..
You said earlier that Allan was going to continue to own this therefore were
expecting Alan to do all this work
Who holds the tarball in their hand right now
Its sitting on Alans home directory
He never gave it to you he just gave you reference to it
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He gave me reference to it had extracted it and looked at it to see what the hell he
did with it because my understanding when we first started down this rathole earlier
in the week was that since the NSPR wasnt going out early we were taking the
stuff off their CBS directory Which is how this all started
OK Does this tarball contain the changes that we had to make as well to get it to
actually run..
Yes On LINUX yes it does
Well he claims that it does
We need to make sure that everything that weve done to actually make it work
OK Who is checking the tarball into the tree
You want me to do this huh
If do it Im going to own that goddamn code
We really need an NSPR pub
We actually need we need what we need Friar to do it right cause thats his
OK who needs to talk to Alan
will talk to Alan
think thats the right yeah he should do it but yeah He has to start playing he
has to serve our master on this directory..
...he owns this if he owns this then hes got to show that..
...if hes going to serve two masters lets..
.sign it check it in..
..check it in sanitize it
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And sign it
and sign it OK
And notify Tom
So what do do for my Beta testers that are showing up Monday morning at 1030
Just give them the old NSPR
Ml right
Dont sweat it Theyre under NDA...
Thats true right So theyre getting
-and it doesnt matter
-theyre getting
Youre burning the CDs for them right now right
Burned some of them already
And the threat is and the threat right is if he doesnt do it you own it right youll
be glad to do it but you own it
.. everyone speaks at once
-What about configuring the build to build under the pub directory Hell check it in
but then would you would you make it then they call changes to the client to
actually make it use utilize that
Oh um all want to do is make the change to client.make
.UN Windows and Mac..
We have to make the change to the files make MK and Mac to not pull
the NSPR...
This is going to hoard the Mac project file isnt it
Yes it is
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OK when do you want to do this cause were going to have to do uh Scott.
next week..
We cannot do it now We have to do it
Cant do it now
...All right Ill get..
Monday at the very earliest
Well hes not going to get it checked it before Monday dont think
Monday at the very earliest but lets say Wednesday at the very latest cause we need
We cant
Oh man Were getting down to the line The truth is if you wanted to talk about
icebergs think you should really think about some some significant effort its
either going to be Alan Frier and if we cant we should put out request is there
anyone whos willing to work this this weekend dont think you should demand
people work it but it would not hurt at this point to say who is willing to is
there anyone whos willing to help us out with this and specifically not demand but
ask and bet youll find few people who are willing and happy to say No it
turned out my you know my ski plans fell through or whatever you know And
am saying something wrong or but right now were too close to the edge to
be pissing around with this
Youre looking at bunch of people who are tired of working weekends
Thats why Im saying dont demand that they work weekends but you cannot put
this off for Monday or Wednesday of next week when youre going for Tuesday
of the next week release
Were much too late right now
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Yes would agree
The thing is
any of the changes that take place have to be done in conjunction with my team
changing the bill of procedures and cannot ask my cannot want my team to
not be here this weekend
Its going to take whole day
It its my team is very tired
To do this
We got we got one day..
...lets get it ready to go..
Its got to be ready to go on Monday Monday afternoon
And if Alan
cant do it..
You will talk to Alan today
II Alan cant
.1 will leave right now..
.. Monday afternoon then somebody else needs to guarantee that they can get it
will if Alan wont do it Monday morning will
All right
will get it checked in
All right Now can we go back to the license deal
Definitely We got to work We cant lay off the release team working this weekend
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Its just ..
All right
Heres the license deal Pretend just for the sake of argument that has
all files which contain only the NPL OK Just for the sake of argument Now On
Tuesday receives file that has different license than either the NPL
or the MPL If that file is GPL it taints the entire tree True
No you cant- you cant damage someone elses tree by injecting someone in
something into someone elses source code
Actually its not true
You cant use it to attack people its not
its not true that it infects the rest of the product What is true is that it is illegal to
put that file in that directory
Thats thats ..
Because its because the two licenses are in conflict There is no way that both
those constraints can be satisfied
So Ijust wanted to start with its clear that cares to some degree what
license is on files it receives
OK If they receive file which has beerware license
-and they check that in now some of the code that is the is the
custodian of is uh tainted and requires people to give back changes and some
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Well think we need to have place for people to stuff stuff that is not urn
stewarded suppose by Mozilla Different license not necessarily part of
browser when you build it
For sundry reasons theres going to be place where people can put stuff
Heres uh some FTP space we dont care
Its just stuff
Or this
part of the ..
So clearly if theyre saying heres new thing that isnt browser thats under
Freds license and likes it they can clearly take it What if they say here
.a separate directory..
here is new plug-in architecture
We have two issues here say rather than being some other thing that wasnt
browser its some other thing that is plug-in right
For example
Uh think that that you know you can live in world where basically every in
every independent work has its own license as long as the licenses are vaguely
compatible by some metric What you dont want to be in the situation of is is
having the division between those various things be unclear
So like you dont want to have like six files in Net in the Netlib directory that
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have six different licenses on them That would just be like nightmare to manage
Thats where were going
That where we are today
Where are we today
Well the condition of the source code today is it could go out of the building It is
all completely freely redistributable right But every file has different license
Essentially Im not lying but there are an infinite variety of licenses scattered
throughout the source code Ml of them are relatively compatible with the NPL
What is the number of different licenses
have no idea Therere
No no no no
Yeah or magnitude 10
So none of them are incompatible with uh NPL
Well actually them are some GCL
but those wont get out the building
to be less restrictive
Fine if somebody
than NPL or MPL
if somebody wants to toss bunch of code into Netlib with license that is
compatible with NPL then we will unfortunately have to look at it but look at it
and smile and say OK But if somebody contributes uh you know beerware
license that is incompatible in NPL then its no different than some other proprietary
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code It goes somewhere else either in our distribution or not
and what you can put into our binary are the hooks
So we have we have problem that our code doesnt meet those requirements
Youre and those are your requirements for accepting code our code
doesnt meet those requirements
OK In which way does it not
...Im not getting into that Right now think we have basically as understand the
problem weve got NPL and BSD And many things that look and smell very much
like BSD Right
Yes thats correct
Or that are less restrictive
Like the exconsertion files
There are lots of licenses
there are licenses in the code said this is written by Fred Where Fred is
somebody could be BSD and as long as you include this copyright you can
redistribute this BSD is actually slightly more restrictive It says as long as you
include this copyright and cite me in your splash screen you can include this source
But all of these that are licenses that are less restrictive than NPL
So they can they can be distributed along with NPL code without violating NPL
h3 compatible
i7 S1t7
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Theyre compatible in that respect yes
think thats all that matters
Well you just said we have the area where were going to have to keep NPL code
and then we have the area where we keep other license codes
Imjust talking about things that are not compatible
if its compatible with NPL unfortunately we have to look at it
You look at it
and if its Freds license but it smells good it can go into Netlib
So if its Freds
...if its completely public domain anyone can take it they go sure theres nothing
hurt us to put this in here
thought we had this conversation like two weeks ago
All right understand agree obviously never was in argument that you guys
were taking incompatible stuff So youre saying well take anything thats
And if we look at it and its incompatible then
No no no You will take anything that is compatible dont care about incompatible
believe thatll be the case
.. Im not going to give you any incompatible stuff
.. taking it youll take it
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.. make some judgments
finish Ill let you finish You want to say something
guess have to go ask the question
If BSD licensed me five lines of code and can do whatever want with it as long
as what are the two conditions
Include the copyright in any place you use the code
The copyright
And include this this the exact text of this license
Ah License copyright way different
Yeah right OK ..
So can only re-license it under their terms
No you can do anything you want with this code as long as you include the text of
this thing in whatever you do with it And
if you cite us in these places
Which includes license
But it doesnt say this is the only license or you may not re-license
Well cant put more restrictive license on it
Sure you could
.. everyone talks at once
..I mean in our currently shipping products and currently you know in our
privately shipping products weve got BSD stuff in it and weve got much much
more restrictive license today pre-3/31 than BSD
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If you go out and ship that BSD source to somebody with more restrictive license
dont think you can because the BSD license is in it
and it transmits rights
They can go get the BSD version if they want the version that doesnt have your
restrictive license
...Modify it
Im going to modify it
Youre not going to modify it
Im going to modify it
And that those modifications are covered under the more restrictive license
In that case dont have problem This is really easy
dont mind taking in the compatible licenses into the mainframe
Well then is everything that distributes have the NPL Now that
youve accepted it do you then NPL it
Sure He just told me could Unless cant
Even if you havent modified it
All right
...most people dont do that kind of stuff
Not because can Im not going to re-license it under NFL because can Im
going to re-license it under NPL because it should be worked on
...probably re-license itunder MPL...
.probably someone else whoever worked on it would re-license it under..
Most critically you want your changes to be NPL and thats why you just cover
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the whole sucker
MI right
And we have like little fragments of code where it might be some variant of just
slightly above public domain license where weve like credited the author retained
the copyright blah blah blah The rest of the file is in NPL
In fact changes to that little piece of code are covered under the NPL too
Its not like Oh changed this part which
Theres theres another way of looking at this which is that you know if someone
put some code under the BSD license and it was good enough for us to use why is
it not good enough for us to distribute You know why dont were were
were our license our NPL is requiring that people when people make bug fixes
or small modifications to it that they redistribute it under the same terms of the
license And were requiring that in the license But you know why shouldnt we
do them the same courtesy If they if the original author released it under BSD and
were making small fix to it why should we not also release their code under
We should Its not question of small fixes its questions of ...
Well its question of what in the terms of the NPL are modifications Changes in
the same file
No agree with you if we make some fix theres typo theres condition that
they never went through
well it was never greater than 32 before and now its finally greater than 32s ..
condition it was bug and we fix it no big deal have no beef with just leave
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the BSD thing in there and keep going But thats thats not the only thing thats
going to happen Theres going to be cases where urn you really change the way it
works Or you take piece of code and lift it and put it completely environrnent
thats actually more common thing to have happen right and in that case you
want mean were going to have to be able to NPL it the question is can and
think Ijust heard that can Im going to check with the lawyers guess youve
already done lot of that couldnt decipher all that e-mail this rnorning
What Mitchell said was uh she had no problem with putting the NFL on top of
file that has another license she was concerned that that would piss people off
think you have to pass the red face test You have to be able to explain why you
did that And if you can pass the red face test and people who look at it go yeah
OK get it
Mitchells answer should be dependent on the licenses in question right
...I read her the text of the BSD license and she said yeah we could stick the
think what were coming to the conclusion of is we just dont prepend the NPL to
like every file with less restrictive license right
mean more than likely if were going to lift something out of BSD code or
sornething like that and put it in file that we created how do know where to
draw the line
Now youre in thing where
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...I understand the answer to my question going to live with this set of were going to you know be
perfectly fine with the decisions that Michael makes thats all we need to know
Right On these big .. cases
Or do you guys want to make the call
Well the decisions that Michael makes are in this magical time before
really exists so its stuff that goes into the initial ..
..then move that this issue is dead..
No its not...its no different than any other time gets code
says will accept this code what are their criteria for that All right
Well there is problem mean understand where hes going hes going to the
place where you make some change and you say you know this is the kind of
change where Im not going to..
.. that if we dont NPL this NPL everything then she has the religion that its
really important to force people to give their changes back Thats why theres all
these tainting clauses in the NPL think shes saying if you accept BSD stuff
youre not forcing the changes to come back to you
And you guys are saying that thats OK we can live in that world Right
Sure Especially in cases where its already BSD code
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If Rich is happy if Toms happy then Imjust thrilled shitless
Are we talking about like 60% of the program or five how many how many files
have the BSD license
Its very small amount
Two or three
Oh no
Well hundreds
Yeah but were talking like thousands of files
Under 1%
Jamie everyone who has the IBSD license came from somebody who put BSD
license on it Right
Yeah so what are you getting at
What Im getting at is those files should be treated that way
Yeah youre right Youre right
mean if its really so trivial Ill just give you all the code except for the ones that
have the BSD license its only 1% of the code
No were happy dont understand why youre not happy
Ijust want to write piece of paper that someone can understand that says heres
how to get source out of the building and if youve done this you win Right And
then so it says if you wrote this file yourself put the NPL on it and youre done
If you wrote this file yourself and you incorporated file from BSD then do the right
thing If this is BSD file and you made changes do the right thing
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Do the right thing Xeah And if you dont know what the right thing is ask
Toys not going to Toys going to send them to you
have actually no clue
OK Dead state Next topic
OK Dead sync
But you are going into the licensing business after ..
Legal services are us
We have enough to pass the review on sanitization the uh next week right Do you
have enough data to do that job
have order the magnitude 30 3rd party issues were closed in
questionable way that will need to be reviewed with Mitchell in specific detail
Poor Mitchell
Poor Michael Mitchell just hand her bunch of papers and say Here Mitchell
.. Everybody here is too old want to know if the guys who are graduating right
now have to take legal classes to get engineering degrees thats what want to
No no but you should be required to take class that teaches you how to make use
of lawyers Right
want to know if the lawyers take engineering classes Thats what care about
Hey Lloyd how was skiing
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